Some days I'm convinced that most ardent proponents of vocal fry are misogynists who don't want women to be taken seriously. In all honesty, vocal fry and uptalk make me ashamed to be female.
What the fuck? You know, men "commit" vocal fry, too. So you can just be ashamed of being an asshole now.
posted by easter queen at 10:18 AM on November 16, in thread 23919
Dude.
But I think the person to whom you're responding was pointing out that it was odd and suspect that people thought that this would be a good thread to mention all the other things that bugged them.
I know exactly why I responded to that threadperson, and I don't appreciate it being explained it to me as if I didn't understand, when I already explained /why/ in my above comment and reply to that person? I see the connections being made between all the frustrations, because they ARE connected. They are all micro-aggressions. I quite literally posted a link that explored the link between all of them. Now I'M frustrated, because I can't tell if you actually understood that I was making a point about how microaggressions and links to debasing feminity are connected, and I am unsure if you are understanding that, and now I have to do the emotional labor of asking? Like, sure, you said that "I made a good point" but trying to explain what I was doing to me is...insulting? I'm getting really upset here, and now I'm going to have to leave because I'm really pissed, because everything about this strikes a really sour tone. Was I just mansplained to? Feeling disoriented.
The link that odinsdream posted above is exactly what I was relating to.
posted by yueliang at 1:25 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
microaggression! microaggresion!
posted by telstar at 3:24 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
it's fascinating to watch newer members
It used to be, but I think they'll be posting differently now that they know an experienced and unbiased member is watching them with such interest.
posted by michaelh at 4:05 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
It used to be, but I think they'll be posting differently now that they know an experienced and unbiased member is watching them with such interest.
Uh, I want to be charitable, so I'll give you a chance to clarify: were you trying to be a dick?
posted by Xavier Xavier at 4:44 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
Wait, what?
posted by Xavier Xavier at 4:48 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
Whatever. New members throwing shit at jessamyn (of all members!) is the new normal?
posted by Xavier Xavier at 4:52 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
You know what sucks? Men shouting at the TV when something happens to the sports team they like or hate or just are watching because it's the only sports team on.
This is a valid complaint. I try not to, but you do not know the pain of being an Eagles fan.
EFFFFF UUUU MILES AUSTIN!!!!!!
posted by Drinky Die at 7:23 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
You know what sucks? Men shouting at the TV when something happens to the sports team they like or hate or just are watching because it's the only sports team on.
Seriously. I hear this a lot from men who are Packers fans. Those men are the worst.
posted by hal_c_on at 7:34 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
You know what sucks? Men shouting at the TV when something happens to the sports team they like or hate or just are watching because it's the only sports team on.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:19 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
Do they get the option to change the channel?
posted by clavdivs at 6:23 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
You know what sucks? Men shouting at the TV when something happens to the sports team they like or hate or just are watching because it's the only sports team on.
I'm pretty sure I never managed to get into supporting team sports because of all the yelling. As a kid I went on a father-son bonding-type thing to see the local rugby team he supported play, and found, strangely enough, being surrounded by burly men 3 foot taller than myself yelling ferociously at other men I couldn't really see tackling each other to not be an experience I was particularly keen to repeat. Sure, it's a cultural norm, but I would have much preferred quiet polite clapping. I will happily watch tennis for this reason.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 7:23 PM on November 16, in thread 23919
Tuesday, November 17, 2015
Reaction to the Paris Terror Attacks, Part Three
Well, saying that "argue your side and then declare this is a derail" is a derail is true, so I'll stop.
posted by eriko at 7:49 PM on November 14, in thread 154694
I really don't think that a nation which has a period of its own history called the "Reign of Terror" and then in the twentieth century passed the Statuts des juifs actually finds something like the Khmer Rouge developing in its colonial possessions so incomprehensible.
Nor should the U.S., accustomed to pumping unlimited amounts of guns and money into a place to achieve political and military leverage in pursuit of "American objectives" without regard to what's actually done with all the weapons and wealth and influence conferred, (in fact, heck, if it's used for rapacious capitalism and consolidation of power in a tiny class of people who then get whatever they want, that's just spreading the American Way!) act all flabbergasted and surprised every time we yet again turn some part of the world into the Heart of Darkness as though we're using that book as a script.
posted by XMLicious at 9:19 PM on November 14, in thread 154694
My comment got deleted so I will leave specific examples out. If anyone felt as though by mentioning things from French and American history I was blaming the people of Paris for being attacked that is not what I was saying at all.
My point is that we shouldn't redact our own histories so that this sort of violence is something that only the alien Other from beyond civilization does and which we ourselves are wholly unfamiliar with, and hence merely has to do with the Other's alien nature; nor express surprise and treat as unforseeable the fact that again and again over the decades circumstances somewhere overseas that are permitted to fester, in ways that areas nearer to home wouldn't be, subsequently degenerate into chaos and butchery.
posted by XMLicious at 12:08 AM on November 15, in thread 154694
While it is a pain in the ass, Singapore is 3-4 hour drive from Kuala Lumpur.
This is less of a big deal than it is being made out to be
God bless you.
posted by cendawanita at 12:53 AM on November 15, in thread 154694
Gee, I guess logic wins the day! Well played!
posted by Wolof at 4:55 AM on November 15, in thread 154694
Careful now, emotion may derail us here!
posted by Wolof at 5:00 AM on November 15, in thread 154694
Wolof, can you go easy on the sarcasm? I don't think it's a great tool to use here.
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:01 AM on November 15, in thread 154694
posted by eriko at 7:49 PM on November 14, in thread 154694
I really don't think that a nation which has a period of its own history called the "Reign of Terror" and then in the twentieth century passed the Statuts des juifs actually finds something like the Khmer Rouge developing in its colonial possessions so incomprehensible.
Nor should the U.S., accustomed to pumping unlimited amounts of guns and money into a place to achieve political and military leverage in pursuit of "American objectives" without regard to what's actually done with all the weapons and wealth and influence conferred, (in fact, heck, if it's used for rapacious capitalism and consolidation of power in a tiny class of people who then get whatever they want, that's just spreading the American Way!) act all flabbergasted and surprised every time we yet again turn some part of the world into the Heart of Darkness as though we're using that book as a script.
posted by XMLicious at 9:19 PM on November 14, in thread 154694
My comment got deleted so I will leave specific examples out. If anyone felt as though by mentioning things from French and American history I was blaming the people of Paris for being attacked that is not what I was saying at all.
My point is that we shouldn't redact our own histories so that this sort of violence is something that only the alien Other from beyond civilization does and which we ourselves are wholly unfamiliar with, and hence merely has to do with the Other's alien nature; nor express surprise and treat as unforseeable the fact that again and again over the decades circumstances somewhere overseas that are permitted to fester, in ways that areas nearer to home wouldn't be, subsequently degenerate into chaos and butchery.
posted by XMLicious at 12:08 AM on November 15, in thread 154694
While it is a pain in the ass, Singapore is 3-4 hour drive from Kuala Lumpur.
This is less of a big deal than it is being made out to be
God bless you.
posted by cendawanita at 12:53 AM on November 15, in thread 154694
Gee, I guess logic wins the day! Well played!
posted by Wolof at 4:55 AM on November 15, in thread 154694
Careful now, emotion may derail us here!
posted by Wolof at 5:00 AM on November 15, in thread 154694
Wolof, can you go easy on the sarcasm? I don't think it's a great tool to use here.
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:01 AM on November 15, in thread 154694
Saturday, November 14, 2015
Reaction to the Paris Terror Attacks, Part Two
Yeah, well there are plenty of other potential fucking assholes who do have internet access and look at all kinds of websites and see the infamy of their predecessors. But this thread isn't about that so I won't comment further.
posted by Beti at 10:02 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
No, I think I'll call them exactly what they are, which is "fucking cowardly terrorists". YMMV.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 10:11 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I wonder what color glass the Syrian desert will be when this plays out to its nasty end.
Isis can go fuck themselves.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 3:53 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Since Isis wants to be a "state" now I sincerely hope that France does treat this as an act of war by such a state and acts appropriately.
France has already bombed IS. Perhaps they should turn Syria 'into glass' and see what Russia has to say about that.
posted by colie at 4:17 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
US soldiers killed at least 100,000 Iraqis.
On top of all the ones they porno-tortured, DVDs of which are available in any middle east market. And still people ask 'why do they hate us?'
posted by colie at 4:24 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Since this is still standing in spite of flags – it would be nice if "the Syrian desert" (there are also mountains in Syria where Daesh are active) were NOT turned to glass since people other than Daesh members live there.
I would also appreciate – since clearly flags aren't being listened to (I'm not only referring to the one comment) – if this thread were a lot less death wish and a lot more informative? I had hoped that would go without saying, as was the case in the 9/11 thread?
posted by fraula at 4:25 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
I would also appreciate – since clearly flags aren't being listened to (I'm not only referring to the one comment) – if this thread were a lot less death wish and a lot more informative?
Yes, I completely agree.
posted by winna at 4:48 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
I've been tweeting about Scott Anderson's great book "Lawrence in Arabia." How is it relevant? Read the book to find out.
I didn't know till 5 minutes ago that 40 people in Beirut were murdered the other night. Nothing in my Twitter feed Friday morning. Huh.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 5:15 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
On average 36 died by gun violence yesterday in the US. The US has experienced 288 mass shootings in the last year. Shall we apply all these imagined proposals against refugees and Muslims to target young white men responsible for so many terrorists acts in the US?
posted by humanfont at 6:03 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Respectfully, Sir Rinse, that event is only related by time. A coordinated terrorist attack such as what happened in Paris last night takes many months to prepare and was planned long before the drone strike on Emwazi.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:09 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
I just screwed up the link cause I'm on my phone, but there was a tweet apparently from an Isis Twitter account naming Rome, London, Washington and others next.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 6:10 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Klaxon - did they also call lots of people apostates and proclaim the rise of a new caliphate with peace and enough to eat?
Because that's what they do. Pay it no heed, and don't help it spread. Don't find the link.
posted by cromagnon at 6:15 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
But equating such actions to the actions of a terrorist state like ISIS and their actions - such as what happened last evening - is not only a false comparison but does great injustice to the victims of such terrorism. We did not force the hands of terrorists to do the things they did last night - they, and the people behind them, take all the responsibility for that on their own heads. I do not remotely accept blaming the victims here.
“The story of terrorism is written by the state and it is therefore highly instructive . . . compared with terrorism, everything else must be acceptable, or in any case more rational and democratic.†- Guy Debord
Read Living Under Drones: Death, Injury and Trauma to Civilians from US Drone Practices in Pakistan and tell me that you can draw a bright, clear line between the indiscriminate murder of civilians it describes and what happened last night.
ISIS and Western elites are both parasites on decent people in the states they occupy, mirror one another in their depravity and nihilism, and are dependent on each other to exist.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:19 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
LeRoienJaune: I will, in fact, advocate Western imperialism as a preferable alternate to the present genocidal anarchy of the Syrian civil war.
I'm not going to waste my energy explaining to you why advocating for Western imperialism is a repugnant and racist remark. Go fuck yourself.
angrycat: I'm reminded of something the great Dexter Filkins wrote about 9/11: the evening of the attacks, he got around the perimeter and somewhere near the towers site came across some human remains on the street. I think he had just returned from the Middle East and he wrote something to the effect of the mind-scrambling feeling that what he was seeing a scene that he had come across in say, Lebanon.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Oh I see, you can't even remember what he wrote, so you'll just name some random country in the vicinity of "middle east", because surely our street corners are all strewn with random human remains.
Yeah, go fuck yourself.
angrycat: Because similar to NYC in 9/11, I guess the ME has been horrifically dropped on the head of Parisians, and what good can come of this, I wonder.
What the fuck is even supposed to mean.
posted by xqwzts at 6:28 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Poland says it cannot accept migrants under EU quotas, following attacks in Paris
Presumably they were being asked to take French migrants, since the only attacker so far identified was French just like the Hebdo killers.
posted by colie at 6:38 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
LeRoienJaune: I will, in fact, advocate Western imperialism as a preferable alternate to the present genocidal anarchy of the Syrian civil war.
Advocating for Western imperialism is a racist comment.
angrycat: he got around the perimeter and somewhere near the towers site came across some human remains on the street. I think he had just returned from the Middle East and he wrote something to the effect of the mind-scrambling feeling that what he was seeing a scene that he had come across in say, Lebanon.
Making an offhand claim about some country you couldn't even be bother to look up being strewn with human remains on the street is a racist comment.
angrycat: Because similar to NYC in 9/11, I guess the ME has been horrifically dropped on the head of Parisians, and what good can come of this, I wonder.
This sentence, in all its absurdity, is a racist comment.
dazed_one : Could we bring back the Ottomans?
Yes, let us bring back the empire that tortured, murdered, and starved the whole region. I will allow others far calmer than I am right now the opportunity to explain to you Turkey's involvement in this shit show. Turkey, the NATO member, that has been arming, supplying, treating, and supporting ISIS for the past few years. Let's bring them back. Perhaps it would be better if you actually alleviated your ignorance on the matter before commenting. This is a racist comment.
posted by xqwzts at 6:45 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
self-deleted - mods feel free to delete this please :)
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:52 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Because there are too many to point out: http://metatalk.metafilter.com/23891/We-need-to-have-a-discussion-about-racism
posted by xqwzts at 6:57 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
dazed_one - perhaps this is not the right time for such arguments ?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:52 AM on November 14 [+] [!]
It's an uncomfortable discussion, to be sure, but when western nations are trying to figure out how to respond the horror in Paris, perhaps that is the moment to discuss the reasons why it happened and what the outcomes may be?
posted by dazed_one at 6:59 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Randomly attacking random people in a shopping and restaurant district *on purpose* is way worse in intent than anything GWB did.
Really?
I tend to look at numbers. Ordering a military action that results in the death of 100,000+ civilians is not worse than the killing of 200+ innocents (or 3000+ innocents for that matter)?
That implies that an Iraqi life is worth no more than 3000/100000 that of a western life. Is this the argument?
posted by Artful Codger at 9:05 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
That implies that an Iraqi life is worth no more than 3000/100000 that of a western life. Is this the argument?
You forgot to reduce: that's .03, or 3%.
posted by pullayup at 9:16 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
That implies that an Iraqi life is worth no more than 3000/100000 that of a western life. Is this the argument?
I see your point, but I guess I'm arguing that intents matter more than outcomes. I don't think even Dick Cheney thought "hey, maybe we'll hit some little Muslim kids in a playground, that'd be a bonus!". But I think ISIS's ideology is precisely that. The more collateral damage, the better. There's a mythical sky god that thinks we're the chosen people and wants us to ... kill people so our random sub-sect-of-a-sub-sect can sit in a pile of rubble and cut off each other's hands and shit? I'm sorry, theirs is just objectively an incorrect world view. I don't buy cultural relativism in this case. Some cultures in the world are trying to progress beyond primitivism. Do they fuck up? Yes. Are there bad consequences for climate, resources, etc? Yes. But is the *primary goal* to kill unbelievers? No. I would rather live in a global corporate state with a new iPhone shoved down my throat every year forever than in one where people want to just randomly kill me for no reason (hopefully we have other choices). Yes, in the US we have mass shootings for other reasons, but the broader culture sees them as bad and struggles to prevent them. ISIS is building a culture specifically around murder, rape, and destruction as end goals. There's no amount of past suffering that excuses that.
posted by freecellwizard at 9:18 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Really?
I tend to look at numbers. Ordering a military action that results in the death of 100,000+ civilians is not worse than the killing of 200+ innocents (or 3000+ innocents for that matter)?
That implies that an Iraqi life is worth no more than 3000/100000 that of a western life. Is this the argument?
It appears the above commenter was arguing moral culpability on the basis of intent, not of effect, although that distinction can be blurry. What is not known is the counterfactual: how many more innocent lives would have been lost had the military intervention not been undertaken. (The answer may have been more, and it may very well have been less.)
Regardless, I think drawing such comparisons, one way or another, is not particularly helpful. The loss of innocent life in any context is a tragedy.
posted by ageispolis at 9:21 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
This attempt to pile on statistics about whose country has done what strikes me as nothing more than victim blaming and shaming.
posted by humanfont at 9:40 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
It's also no longer a peace symbol if you do that. The effect is accidental.
So was Lisa Simpson Giving A Blowjob. Doesn't mean the effect isn't there.
posted by eriko at 11:43 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Did you know 44 people were killed in a suicide bombing in Lebanon yesterday?
Did facebook have a check-in for this? Or does that only happen when people get killed in mostly white countries or ones with lots of tourism.
(i really struggled with how to phrase this in a way that didn't sound flip, but that feature makes me really angry because it does consistently seem to be applied that way. One of the only times i've seen it pop up outside of that was during the storm in mexico... where a lot of my friends were on vacation)
posted by emptythought at 2:44 PM on November 14, in thread 154694
posted by Beti at 10:02 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
No, I think I'll call them exactly what they are, which is "fucking cowardly terrorists". YMMV.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 10:11 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I wonder what color glass the Syrian desert will be when this plays out to its nasty end.
Isis can go fuck themselves.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 3:53 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Since Isis wants to be a "state" now I sincerely hope that France does treat this as an act of war by such a state and acts appropriately.
France has already bombed IS. Perhaps they should turn Syria 'into glass' and see what Russia has to say about that.
posted by colie at 4:17 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
US soldiers killed at least 100,000 Iraqis.
On top of all the ones they porno-tortured, DVDs of which are available in any middle east market. And still people ask 'why do they hate us?'
posted by colie at 4:24 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Since this is still standing in spite of flags – it would be nice if "the Syrian desert" (there are also mountains in Syria where Daesh are active) were NOT turned to glass since people other than Daesh members live there.
I would also appreciate – since clearly flags aren't being listened to (I'm not only referring to the one comment) – if this thread were a lot less death wish and a lot more informative? I had hoped that would go without saying, as was the case in the 9/11 thread?
posted by fraula at 4:25 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
I would also appreciate – since clearly flags aren't being listened to (I'm not only referring to the one comment) – if this thread were a lot less death wish and a lot more informative?
Yes, I completely agree.
posted by winna at 4:48 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
I've been tweeting about Scott Anderson's great book "Lawrence in Arabia." How is it relevant? Read the book to find out.
I didn't know till 5 minutes ago that 40 people in Beirut were murdered the other night. Nothing in my Twitter feed Friday morning. Huh.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 5:15 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
On average 36 died by gun violence yesterday in the US. The US has experienced 288 mass shootings in the last year. Shall we apply all these imagined proposals against refugees and Muslims to target young white men responsible for so many terrorists acts in the US?
posted by humanfont at 6:03 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Respectfully, Sir Rinse, that event is only related by time. A coordinated terrorist attack such as what happened in Paris last night takes many months to prepare and was planned long before the drone strike on Emwazi.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:09 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
I just screwed up the link cause I'm on my phone, but there was a tweet apparently from an Isis Twitter account naming Rome, London, Washington and others next.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 6:10 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Klaxon - did they also call lots of people apostates and proclaim the rise of a new caliphate with peace and enough to eat?
Because that's what they do. Pay it no heed, and don't help it spread. Don't find the link.
posted by cromagnon at 6:15 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
But equating such actions to the actions of a terrorist state like ISIS and their actions - such as what happened last evening - is not only a false comparison but does great injustice to the victims of such terrorism. We did not force the hands of terrorists to do the things they did last night - they, and the people behind them, take all the responsibility for that on their own heads. I do not remotely accept blaming the victims here.
“The story of terrorism is written by the state and it is therefore highly instructive . . . compared with terrorism, everything else must be acceptable, or in any case more rational and democratic.†- Guy Debord
Read Living Under Drones: Death, Injury and Trauma to Civilians from US Drone Practices in Pakistan and tell me that you can draw a bright, clear line between the indiscriminate murder of civilians it describes and what happened last night.
ISIS and Western elites are both parasites on decent people in the states they occupy, mirror one another in their depravity and nihilism, and are dependent on each other to exist.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:19 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
LeRoienJaune: I will, in fact, advocate Western imperialism as a preferable alternate to the present genocidal anarchy of the Syrian civil war.
I'm not going to waste my energy explaining to you why advocating for Western imperialism is a repugnant and racist remark. Go fuck yourself.
angrycat: I'm reminded of something the great Dexter Filkins wrote about 9/11: the evening of the attacks, he got around the perimeter and somewhere near the towers site came across some human remains on the street. I think he had just returned from the Middle East and he wrote something to the effect of the mind-scrambling feeling that what he was seeing a scene that he had come across in say, Lebanon.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Oh I see, you can't even remember what he wrote, so you'll just name some random country in the vicinity of "middle east", because surely our street corners are all strewn with random human remains.
Yeah, go fuck yourself.
angrycat: Because similar to NYC in 9/11, I guess the ME has been horrifically dropped on the head of Parisians, and what good can come of this, I wonder.
What the fuck is even supposed to mean.
posted by xqwzts at 6:28 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Poland says it cannot accept migrants under EU quotas, following attacks in Paris
Presumably they were being asked to take French migrants, since the only attacker so far identified was French just like the Hebdo killers.
posted by colie at 6:38 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
LeRoienJaune: I will, in fact, advocate Western imperialism as a preferable alternate to the present genocidal anarchy of the Syrian civil war.
Advocating for Western imperialism is a racist comment.
angrycat: he got around the perimeter and somewhere near the towers site came across some human remains on the street. I think he had just returned from the Middle East and he wrote something to the effect of the mind-scrambling feeling that what he was seeing a scene that he had come across in say, Lebanon.
Making an offhand claim about some country you couldn't even be bother to look up being strewn with human remains on the street is a racist comment.
angrycat: Because similar to NYC in 9/11, I guess the ME has been horrifically dropped on the head of Parisians, and what good can come of this, I wonder.
This sentence, in all its absurdity, is a racist comment.
dazed_one : Could we bring back the Ottomans?
Yes, let us bring back the empire that tortured, murdered, and starved the whole region. I will allow others far calmer than I am right now the opportunity to explain to you Turkey's involvement in this shit show. Turkey, the NATO member, that has been arming, supplying, treating, and supporting ISIS for the past few years. Let's bring them back. Perhaps it would be better if you actually alleviated your ignorance on the matter before commenting. This is a racist comment.
posted by xqwzts at 6:45 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
self-deleted - mods feel free to delete this please :)
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:52 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Because there are too many to point out: http://metatalk.metafilter.com/23891/We-need-to-have-a-discussion-about-racism
posted by xqwzts at 6:57 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
dazed_one - perhaps this is not the right time for such arguments ?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:52 AM on November 14 [+] [!]
It's an uncomfortable discussion, to be sure, but when western nations are trying to figure out how to respond the horror in Paris, perhaps that is the moment to discuss the reasons why it happened and what the outcomes may be?
posted by dazed_one at 6:59 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Randomly attacking random people in a shopping and restaurant district *on purpose* is way worse in intent than anything GWB did.
Really?
I tend to look at numbers. Ordering a military action that results in the death of 100,000+ civilians is not worse than the killing of 200+ innocents (or 3000+ innocents for that matter)?
That implies that an Iraqi life is worth no more than 3000/100000 that of a western life. Is this the argument?
posted by Artful Codger at 9:05 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
That implies that an Iraqi life is worth no more than 3000/100000 that of a western life. Is this the argument?
You forgot to reduce: that's .03, or 3%.
posted by pullayup at 9:16 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
That implies that an Iraqi life is worth no more than 3000/100000 that of a western life. Is this the argument?
I see your point, but I guess I'm arguing that intents matter more than outcomes. I don't think even Dick Cheney thought "hey, maybe we'll hit some little Muslim kids in a playground, that'd be a bonus!". But I think ISIS's ideology is precisely that. The more collateral damage, the better. There's a mythical sky god that thinks we're the chosen people and wants us to ... kill people so our random sub-sect-of-a-sub-sect can sit in a pile of rubble and cut off each other's hands and shit? I'm sorry, theirs is just objectively an incorrect world view. I don't buy cultural relativism in this case. Some cultures in the world are trying to progress beyond primitivism. Do they fuck up? Yes. Are there bad consequences for climate, resources, etc? Yes. But is the *primary goal* to kill unbelievers? No. I would rather live in a global corporate state with a new iPhone shoved down my throat every year forever than in one where people want to just randomly kill me for no reason (hopefully we have other choices). Yes, in the US we have mass shootings for other reasons, but the broader culture sees them as bad and struggles to prevent them. ISIS is building a culture specifically around murder, rape, and destruction as end goals. There's no amount of past suffering that excuses that.
posted by freecellwizard at 9:18 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Really?
I tend to look at numbers. Ordering a military action that results in the death of 100,000+ civilians is not worse than the killing of 200+ innocents (or 3000+ innocents for that matter)?
That implies that an Iraqi life is worth no more than 3000/100000 that of a western life. Is this the argument?
It appears the above commenter was arguing moral culpability on the basis of intent, not of effect, although that distinction can be blurry. What is not known is the counterfactual: how many more innocent lives would have been lost had the military intervention not been undertaken. (The answer may have been more, and it may very well have been less.)
Regardless, I think drawing such comparisons, one way or another, is not particularly helpful. The loss of innocent life in any context is a tragedy.
posted by ageispolis at 9:21 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
This attempt to pile on statistics about whose country has done what strikes me as nothing more than victim blaming and shaming.
posted by humanfont at 9:40 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
It's also no longer a peace symbol if you do that. The effect is accidental.
So was Lisa Simpson Giving A Blowjob. Doesn't mean the effect isn't there.
posted by eriko at 11:43 AM on November 14, in thread 154694
Did you know 44 people were killed in a suicide bombing in Lebanon yesterday?
Did facebook have a check-in for this? Or does that only happen when people get killed in mostly white countries or ones with lots of tourism.
(i really struggled with how to phrase this in a way that didn't sound flip, but that feature makes me really angry because it does consistently seem to be applied that way. One of the only times i've seen it pop up outside of that was during the storm in mexico... where a lot of my friends were on vacation)
posted by emptythought at 2:44 PM on November 14, in thread 154694
Reaction to the Paris Terror Attacks, Part One
I live between the Bataclan and Charlie Hebdo. I don't even know what I feel anymore nor if I should watch the news or just switch my computer off for a few hours...
posted by OrangeCat at 3:05 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I just posted this to Twitter a few minutes ago, but it's relevant here too: The only thing worse than what's going on tonight is what the FN is going to make of this tomorrow.
posted by LMGM at 4:44 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
The only thing worse than what's going on tonight is what the FN is going to make of this tomorrow.
I don't know what the FN is but are they gonna kill over a hundred people?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:47 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I'm guessing FN = Fox News
And they will probably use this as another excuse to hype Islamophobia and general racist xenophobic garbage.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:49 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I don't know what the FN is but are they gonna kill over a hundred people?
It's the ultra conservative party in France. They'll do their best to make the lives of immigrants actual hell as per usual.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:51 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
A typical terrorist gesture to cause mayhem amongst the populace but no real damage to the state. Asymmetrical warfare for political effect and little else. I'm sure it sucks to be in the middle of it though...
posted by jim in austin at 5:39 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
for example the operational history of the SOA
Solutions By Oracle®?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:53 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I grieve for Paris. I also grieve for Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Chad, Palestine, Somalia, Niger, Burundi, Central African Republic, Yemen, and Ukraine.
posted by Ragini at 5:54 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
If the past pattern is any indicator the attackers are unlikely to be refugees. Recent attacks in France have been carried out by longer term French residents who were radicalized. The refugees are probably among the strongest allies in fighting these radicals because they have already been brutalized by these assholes.
Unlikely to be refugees. Highly likely, however, to have been men who blended among the refugees to come in after having been indoctrinated and trained in Syria.
posted by ocschwar at 6:03 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Highly likely, however, to have been men who blended among the refugees to come in after having been indoctrinated and trained in Syria.
Highly unlikely. A French Muslim travelling to Syria at this time and then back to France is going to raise eyebrows, especially if their radical beforehand. Who travels to get indoctrinated?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:06 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I grieve for Paris. I also grieve for Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Chad, Palestine, Somalia, Niger, Burundi, Central African Republic, Yemen, and Ukraine.
#Alllivesmatter
Perhaps we could could hold off until we're certain who the attackers are before we foist our values onto this.
posted by Maugrim at 6:07 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I grieve for Paris. I also grieve for Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Chad, Palestine, Somalia, Niger, Burundi, Central African Republic, Yemen, and Ukraine.
Gross.
posted by Maugrim at 6:13 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
About Hollande saing "we are going to lead a war which will be pitiless", we should remember that Bin Laden's organizations was destroyed pretty soundly. Afaik, current Islamic extremists mostly operate in Islamic countries, so France has little to wage war on.
Now ISIS has influenced a handful of marginalized Islamic youths in western nations, but that's not the same material support. What if we learn that ISIS mailed these guys their guns? Is France going to attack Syria? That's ridiculous, even by U.S. standards.
I donno what Hollande means by "war", but maybe tighter surveillance of Islamic religious figures in France, maybe more effective gun control, maybe more effective efforts to confront marginalization, maybe tighter screening of travelers from Islamic nations, maybe efforts to reform Islam itself by promoting ultra-left Islamic thinkers. What else could he mean?
I'm not too worried about the national reaction : It's France, not the U.S. It's approx 150 ordinary people, not 3000 rich people working in finance. It's guns, not planes. It'll be much harder to blame foreigners. Attackers are likely French themselves. etc.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:23 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
It's approx 150 ordinary people, not 3000 rich people working in finance.
That is a sick sentiment and you should be ashamed.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 6:24 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
not 3000 rich people working in finance.
Uh, excuse me?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:26 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Jeffburdges: firstly, the 3000 victims of 9/11 also included firemen, policemen, waiters and restaurant staff, and security staff.
Secondly, people who work in finance are also "ordinary people".
Thirdly, if I hadn't had a broken answering machine, I very well may have been in the Twin Towers and may have been a victim myself, and I assure you I am most definitely ordinary.
In the words of my French comrades - manger de la merde, abrutis putain.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
(sorry, lobstermitten, I think we crossposted)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:28 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
@jeffburdges France is already doing air strikes against Daech/ISIS.
I'm pretty sure this is the enemy we'll be after.
posted by Tobu at 6:29 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Not picking a fight, but do we have to let "rich people" stand uncorrected? 411 9/11 victims were emergency workers, police, firefighters or first responders; 70 civilian Army and Navy staffers, and 55 active duty military. Among the others were many workers in finance firms but also people working in the offices of a telephone utility, a foodservice company, two health insurance companies, the state DOT, some local TV stations, the WTC itself, along with an unknown number of undocumented workers in the restaurants. And a bunch of random folks on a place. Some rich people were among the victims (and even they are mourned still) but it was not a tragedy that struck only the elite.
posted by Miko at 6:43 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Yesterday: Lebanon is holding a day of national mourning after at least 41 people were killed in two suicide bombings in the capital, Beirut. The Islamic State (IS) militant group says it was behind the attacks in Burj al-Barajneh, a mainly Shia southern suburb and Hezbollah stronghold. The bombing is the deadliest in the capital since the end of Lebanon's civil war in 1990.
Less than a month ago: The so-called Islamic State has emerged as the main suspect behind the deadliest bomb attack in Turkish history, which killed almost 100 people in the capital Ankara on Saturday.
posted by gwint at 7:14 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
gwint: France is the US's oldest ally (we probably wouldn't even be a country without their help) and this is a predominantly American site, so IMO it's quite understandable that we're more worked up over a terrorist attack in Paris than similar attacks in countries that we're not as close to.
Meanwhile, given relative levels of internet access and English proficiency, we almost certainly have far more French MeFites than either Lebanese or Turkish MeFites.
If you think those other terrorist attacks are deserving of more attention then make a new FPP about them.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:23 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
gwint, what is your point?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:23 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I am not gwint, but I took it to show how these sorts of terrorist activities are increasing in both frequency and the number of victims.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:29 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
gwint: I do not believe in comparative pain, nor do I believe that this thread is the place to introduce things that are not germane to the immediate subject at hand.
posted by PlantGoddess at 7:29 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I don't believe that's the case.
posted by Justinian at 7:29 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I think Americans should show support by changing the name of one of our beloved side dishes, "Freedom Fries" to a name honoring the French in some way.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:58 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Maybe we can not make stupid jokes in a thread about a massive terrorist attack.
Jesus try to have some sensitivity.
posted by winna at 9:24 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Navelgazer : I think the ghettoization of Muslims in France couldn't have helped this, but France isn't to blame here.
Oh please, elucidate me on the history of french muslims.
posted by durandal at 9:37 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
this was an ISIS attack on a peaceful people. The world ought to be in full out war against these assholes. You may not like him but Trump said what we all now feel. BOMB THE SHIT OUT OF THEM! Long live France. I am sorry for your loss. May God redeem your family in this tragic event.
posted by shockingbluamp at 9:50 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
well..my comments were edited by mods that are I guess are in favor of the innocent being killed. Way to go Mods. Rest well in your ISIS paid for beds.
posted by shockingbluamp at 9:58 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
posted by OrangeCat at 3:05 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I just posted this to Twitter a few minutes ago, but it's relevant here too: The only thing worse than what's going on tonight is what the FN is going to make of this tomorrow.
posted by LMGM at 4:44 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
The only thing worse than what's going on tonight is what the FN is going to make of this tomorrow.
I don't know what the FN is but are they gonna kill over a hundred people?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:47 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I'm guessing FN = Fox News
And they will probably use this as another excuse to hype Islamophobia and general racist xenophobic garbage.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:49 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I don't know what the FN is but are they gonna kill over a hundred people?
It's the ultra conservative party in France. They'll do their best to make the lives of immigrants actual hell as per usual.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:51 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
A typical terrorist gesture to cause mayhem amongst the populace but no real damage to the state. Asymmetrical warfare for political effect and little else. I'm sure it sucks to be in the middle of it though...
posted by jim in austin at 5:39 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
for example the operational history of the SOA
Solutions By Oracle®?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:53 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I grieve for Paris. I also grieve for Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Chad, Palestine, Somalia, Niger, Burundi, Central African Republic, Yemen, and Ukraine.
posted by Ragini at 5:54 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
If the past pattern is any indicator the attackers are unlikely to be refugees. Recent attacks in France have been carried out by longer term French residents who were radicalized. The refugees are probably among the strongest allies in fighting these radicals because they have already been brutalized by these assholes.
Unlikely to be refugees. Highly likely, however, to have been men who blended among the refugees to come in after having been indoctrinated and trained in Syria.
posted by ocschwar at 6:03 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Highly likely, however, to have been men who blended among the refugees to come in after having been indoctrinated and trained in Syria.
Highly unlikely. A French Muslim travelling to Syria at this time and then back to France is going to raise eyebrows, especially if their radical beforehand. Who travels to get indoctrinated?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:06 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I grieve for Paris. I also grieve for Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Chad, Palestine, Somalia, Niger, Burundi, Central African Republic, Yemen, and Ukraine.
#Alllivesmatter
Perhaps we could could hold off until we're certain who the attackers are before we foist our values onto this.
posted by Maugrim at 6:07 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I grieve for Paris. I also grieve for Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Chad, Palestine, Somalia, Niger, Burundi, Central African Republic, Yemen, and Ukraine.
Gross.
posted by Maugrim at 6:13 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
About Hollande saing "we are going to lead a war which will be pitiless", we should remember that Bin Laden's organizations was destroyed pretty soundly. Afaik, current Islamic extremists mostly operate in Islamic countries, so France has little to wage war on.
Now ISIS has influenced a handful of marginalized Islamic youths in western nations, but that's not the same material support. What if we learn that ISIS mailed these guys their guns? Is France going to attack Syria? That's ridiculous, even by U.S. standards.
I donno what Hollande means by "war", but maybe tighter surveillance of Islamic religious figures in France, maybe more effective gun control, maybe more effective efforts to confront marginalization, maybe tighter screening of travelers from Islamic nations, maybe efforts to reform Islam itself by promoting ultra-left Islamic thinkers. What else could he mean?
I'm not too worried about the national reaction : It's France, not the U.S. It's approx 150 ordinary people, not 3000 rich people working in finance. It's guns, not planes. It'll be much harder to blame foreigners. Attackers are likely French themselves. etc.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:23 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
It's approx 150 ordinary people, not 3000 rich people working in finance.
That is a sick sentiment and you should be ashamed.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 6:24 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
not 3000 rich people working in finance.
Uh, excuse me?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:26 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Jeffburdges: firstly, the 3000 victims of 9/11 also included firemen, policemen, waiters and restaurant staff, and security staff.
Secondly, people who work in finance are also "ordinary people".
Thirdly, if I hadn't had a broken answering machine, I very well may have been in the Twin Towers and may have been a victim myself, and I assure you I am most definitely ordinary.
In the words of my French comrades - manger de la merde, abrutis putain.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
(sorry, lobstermitten, I think we crossposted)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:28 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
@jeffburdges France is already doing air strikes against Daech/ISIS.
I'm pretty sure this is the enemy we'll be after.
posted by Tobu at 6:29 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Not picking a fight, but do we have to let "rich people" stand uncorrected? 411 9/11 victims were emergency workers, police, firefighters or first responders; 70 civilian Army and Navy staffers, and 55 active duty military. Among the others were many workers in finance firms but also people working in the offices of a telephone utility, a foodservice company, two health insurance companies, the state DOT, some local TV stations, the WTC itself, along with an unknown number of undocumented workers in the restaurants. And a bunch of random folks on a place. Some rich people were among the victims (and even they are mourned still) but it was not a tragedy that struck only the elite.
posted by Miko at 6:43 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Yesterday: Lebanon is holding a day of national mourning after at least 41 people were killed in two suicide bombings in the capital, Beirut. The Islamic State (IS) militant group says it was behind the attacks in Burj al-Barajneh, a mainly Shia southern suburb and Hezbollah stronghold. The bombing is the deadliest in the capital since the end of Lebanon's civil war in 1990.
Less than a month ago: The so-called Islamic State has emerged as the main suspect behind the deadliest bomb attack in Turkish history, which killed almost 100 people in the capital Ankara on Saturday.
posted by gwint at 7:14 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
gwint: France is the US's oldest ally (we probably wouldn't even be a country without their help) and this is a predominantly American site, so IMO it's quite understandable that we're more worked up over a terrorist attack in Paris than similar attacks in countries that we're not as close to.
Meanwhile, given relative levels of internet access and English proficiency, we almost certainly have far more French MeFites than either Lebanese or Turkish MeFites.
If you think those other terrorist attacks are deserving of more attention then make a new FPP about them.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:23 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
gwint, what is your point?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:23 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I am not gwint, but I took it to show how these sorts of terrorist activities are increasing in both frequency and the number of victims.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:29 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
gwint: I do not believe in comparative pain, nor do I believe that this thread is the place to introduce things that are not germane to the immediate subject at hand.
posted by PlantGoddess at 7:29 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I don't believe that's the case.
posted by Justinian at 7:29 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
I think Americans should show support by changing the name of one of our beloved side dishes, "Freedom Fries" to a name honoring the French in some way.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:58 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Maybe we can not make stupid jokes in a thread about a massive terrorist attack.
Jesus try to have some sensitivity.
posted by winna at 9:24 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Navelgazer : I think the ghettoization of Muslims in France couldn't have helped this, but France isn't to blame here.
Oh please, elucidate me on the history of french muslims.
posted by durandal at 9:37 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
this was an ISIS attack on a peaceful people. The world ought to be in full out war against these assholes. You may not like him but Trump said what we all now feel. BOMB THE SHIT OUT OF THEM! Long live France. I am sorry for your loss. May God redeem your family in this tragic event.
posted by shockingbluamp at 9:50 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
well..my comments were edited by mods that are I guess are in favor of the innocent being killed. Way to go Mods. Rest well in your ISIS paid for beds.
posted by shockingbluamp at 9:58 PM on November 13, in thread 154694
Innocuous Comment Deleted Before it Could Sully this Really, Really Important Thread
I have a really hard time teasing apart "aromantic". All the definitions I looked up online seem to be kind of circular around "romantic", which seems to include the same properties aromantics might have, but different in some way that is never clearly explained. Romantics gets "crushes", aromantics get "squishes", etc...
I will admit that this may be my distaste for taxonomy as explanation, however.
Also, I kept accidentally reading it as "aromatic", which changed the meaning of text considerably... :-)
posted by smidgen at 1:12 PM on November 13, in thread 154683
I will admit that this may be my distaste for taxonomy as explanation, however.
Also, I kept accidentally reading it as "aromatic", which changed the meaning of text considerably... :-)
posted by smidgen at 1:12 PM on November 13, in thread 154683
A Handful of MetaTalk Deletions. Ho-hum.
I lived in Arizona for many years, and it gets targeted quite often as well
Arizona is a super garbage state tho. Continue shit-talking at will. Nice scenery, terrible people.
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:56 AM on November 13, in thread 23915
Cortex and the Fuck Kittens. New mixtape dropping this January.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 11:14 AM on November 13, in thread 23915
"Klang, #notallmichiganders, dude. I've got good friends in Howell (aka "howelltucky", walled lake (aka " waltucky"), and Milford (aka "mildewtucky"). You can take howell's racist history and spin it up; you can call all Michiganders a bunch of teabaggers, you can have your own opinions, but keep that shit to yourself. You just put ME in that shitty little picture of Michigan, and that sucks.
I don't need to hear it and quite frankly it's what sciatrix is trying to address. Got problems with michigan politics? Great. Make a post. Got problems with racism in michigan? Great. Make a post. But please stop with the dismissive drive by bullshit, please, and thanks."
Dismissive drive-by bullshit? In the spirit of comity: learn to fucking read, Juggalo.
I didn't call all Michiganders a bunch of teabaggers — I said they'd elected a generations' worth of them. Maybe you're defensive because you're a Kerry Bentivolio voter (you do have friends in Milford)?
The point wasn't that I was lumping all people from Michigan in as racists (though god knows Howell doesn't need me to "spin it up"), it was that many of the stereotypes about The South also apply to Michigan, which is far enough north that you can drive south to Canada.
So instead of borrowing trouble here and implicitly impugning the quality of the Michigan public schools by putting YOURSELF into that "shitty little picture of Michigan," how about spending more time reading and less time getting Better Made dust in your keyboard?
If you're not satisfied by this reply, great, how about you follow your own advice and make a separate MeTa post about it?
posted by klangklangston at 1:19 PM on November 13, in thread 23915
My sons are both Japanese citizens (as is my wife), and are functionally bilingual. I have been intimately connected to Japan and Asia for twenty years. I work as a Japanese-English translator (among other things).
My children have experienced some discrimination in Japan, and my wife has experienced racism in Canada. I'm interested in the construction of race, and how different cultures define race.
I'm also interested in how we raise "third culture" kids.
posted by Nevin at 1:07 PM on November 13, in thread 23916
"rap" "music"
posted by shakespeherian at 2:05 PM on November 13, in thread 23915
I just wanted to address the notion of punching up versus down. I live in New York, and from my point of view, such a huge amount of the worst parts of our culture in the US comes from the south. I look around me up here, and I don't see a bunch of perfect people, but holy crap, as a whole? We get it kinda right, sometimes.
To me, I feel like the south, POLITICALLY has been punching down on me and mine for decades if not centuries. I know there's hundreds of thousands and millions of amazing people there (many of which are my close relatives), but there seems to be a never ending tide of awful garbage spewing from the damn place that I don't know how anyone's gonna stop.
...ANYways:
Sorry, Southerners, I've said mean shit about you sometimes (never on Metafilter). I shouldn't and I'll try not to in the future. I know you've got some great people down there, and i know a lot of MUCH better people than me are caught in the crossfire fighting battles I thankfully never will.
Cheers!
posted by quadbonus at 7:51 PM on November 13, in thread 23915
I disagree with your framing of my comment, LobsterMitten. I explained where I was coming from, admitted I was wrong, and promised not to do something again ever that I've never done here before ever.
Whatever, I guess my tone of voice is just not allowed here.
Peace
posted by quadbonus at 8:13 PM on November 13, in thread 23915
Arizona is a super garbage state tho. Continue shit-talking at will. Nice scenery, terrible people.
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:56 AM on November 13, in thread 23915
Cortex and the Fuck Kittens. New mixtape dropping this January.
posted by Xavier Xavier at 11:14 AM on November 13, in thread 23915
"Klang, #notallmichiganders, dude. I've got good friends in Howell (aka "howelltucky", walled lake (aka " waltucky"), and Milford (aka "mildewtucky"). You can take howell's racist history and spin it up; you can call all Michiganders a bunch of teabaggers, you can have your own opinions, but keep that shit to yourself. You just put ME in that shitty little picture of Michigan, and that sucks.
I don't need to hear it and quite frankly it's what sciatrix is trying to address. Got problems with michigan politics? Great. Make a post. Got problems with racism in michigan? Great. Make a post. But please stop with the dismissive drive by bullshit, please, and thanks."
Dismissive drive-by bullshit? In the spirit of comity: learn to fucking read, Juggalo.
I didn't call all Michiganders a bunch of teabaggers — I said they'd elected a generations' worth of them. Maybe you're defensive because you're a Kerry Bentivolio voter (you do have friends in Milford)?
The point wasn't that I was lumping all people from Michigan in as racists (though god knows Howell doesn't need me to "spin it up"), it was that many of the stereotypes about The South also apply to Michigan, which is far enough north that you can drive south to Canada.
So instead of borrowing trouble here and implicitly impugning the quality of the Michigan public schools by putting YOURSELF into that "shitty little picture of Michigan," how about spending more time reading and less time getting Better Made dust in your keyboard?
If you're not satisfied by this reply, great, how about you follow your own advice and make a separate MeTa post about it?
posted by klangklangston at 1:19 PM on November 13, in thread 23915
My sons are both Japanese citizens (as is my wife), and are functionally bilingual. I have been intimately connected to Japan and Asia for twenty years. I work as a Japanese-English translator (among other things).
My children have experienced some discrimination in Japan, and my wife has experienced racism in Canada. I'm interested in the construction of race, and how different cultures define race.
I'm also interested in how we raise "third culture" kids.
posted by Nevin at 1:07 PM on November 13, in thread 23916
"rap" "music"
posted by shakespeherian at 2:05 PM on November 13, in thread 23915
I just wanted to address the notion of punching up versus down. I live in New York, and from my point of view, such a huge amount of the worst parts of our culture in the US comes from the south. I look around me up here, and I don't see a bunch of perfect people, but holy crap, as a whole? We get it kinda right, sometimes.
To me, I feel like the south, POLITICALLY has been punching down on me and mine for decades if not centuries. I know there's hundreds of thousands and millions of amazing people there (many of which are my close relatives), but there seems to be a never ending tide of awful garbage spewing from the damn place that I don't know how anyone's gonna stop.
...ANYways:
Sorry, Southerners, I've said mean shit about you sometimes (never on Metafilter). I shouldn't and I'll try not to in the future. I know you've got some great people down there, and i know a lot of MUCH better people than me are caught in the crossfire fighting battles I thankfully never will.
Cheers!
posted by quadbonus at 7:51 PM on November 13, in thread 23915
I disagree with your framing of my comment, LobsterMitten. I explained where I was coming from, admitted I was wrong, and promised not to do something again ever that I've never done here before ever.
Whatever, I guess my tone of voice is just not allowed here.
Peace
posted by quadbonus at 8:13 PM on November 13, in thread 23915
Friday, November 13, 2015
Reaction to the Charlie Hebdo Massacre, Part Two
Hopefully we can hear more from some of the French or Francophile mefites who do have the context.
B-b-but 'Mericans got opinions!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:15 AM on January 8, in thread 145914
It strikes me that you, cotton dress sock, have come into a tinder box and are lighting matches at speed. Unlike the cartoonists you're vilifying, however, your use of a sock puppet indicates you're quite unwilling to face the minor social consequences to your real Mefi account.
posted by gilrain at 9:02 AM on January 8, in thread 145914
It strikes me that you, cotton dress sock, have come into a tinder box and are lighting matches at speed. Unlike the cartoonists you're vilifying, however, your use of a sock puppet indicates you're quite unwilling to face the minor social consequences to your real Mefi account.
I invite you to evaluate the embarrassing volume of output under this account and consider what kind of time I'd have to use another one. Nice ad hominem.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:06 AM on January 8, in thread 145914
whereas whether or not a certain sliver of the left are narcissists seems to exclusively be an ad hominem charge against a vaguely defined group, and I don't see how it forwards any discussion at all.
posted by maxsparber at 6:28 AM on January 8 [7 favorites +] [!]
Unsurprising.
posted by jayder at 9:07 AM on January 8, in thread 145914
Actually, it's about ethics in french political cartoons.
posted by malocchio at 1:50 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
And I think that's fascist "with us or against us" Bush era neocon bullshit.
Ah, the name-calling always helps improve threads like this. (Does the "fascist" bit mean the thread is now officially godwinned?)
posted by aught at 2:17 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
And I think that's fascist "with us or against us" Bush era neocon bullshit.
Well you couldn't be more wrong, but I've come to expect no less over the course of reading your contribution here.
posted by walrus at 2:20 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
Everybody with their frickin' panties in a twist: Maybe (just maybe) this is just a story without a moral? Consider (for the love of FSM) the possibility that "some insane people murder some mildly annoying people" is not the kind of story that should inform our philosophies of life. No amount of debate will turn this into a meaningful thing. And certainly not this debate. Which, given the normally ridiculously high level of discourse at MF, doesn't bode well for the rest of the planet. D'oh.
So I don't know, but this might be the most rational reaction I've heard so far (translated from German):
"This could never happen at our magazine. We have only 6 editors."
- Tim Wolff, Titanic Magazine
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 3:24 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
#NotAllIslamists
posted by rr at 3:31 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
It's eerie how closely his remarks resemble the "I condemn the killings, but..." comments coming from liberals in this thread.
The are not liberals, they are leftists, i.e the principle of freedom of speech is less important to them than the principle of ranking moral order based on which rung of the oppression ladder participant identity groups belong to.
posted by dydecker at 5:33 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
That's not a very nice thing to say.
posted by Justinian at 5:39 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
Sort of relevant: Saudi Blogger To Be Publicly Flogged For Insulting Islam
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:21 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
B-b-but 'Mericans got opinions!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:15 AM on January 8, in thread 145914
It strikes me that you, cotton dress sock, have come into a tinder box and are lighting matches at speed. Unlike the cartoonists you're vilifying, however, your use of a sock puppet indicates you're quite unwilling to face the minor social consequences to your real Mefi account.
posted by gilrain at 9:02 AM on January 8, in thread 145914
It strikes me that you, cotton dress sock, have come into a tinder box and are lighting matches at speed. Unlike the cartoonists you're vilifying, however, your use of a sock puppet indicates you're quite unwilling to face the minor social consequences to your real Mefi account.
I invite you to evaluate the embarrassing volume of output under this account and consider what kind of time I'd have to use another one. Nice ad hominem.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:06 AM on January 8, in thread 145914
whereas whether or not a certain sliver of the left are narcissists seems to exclusively be an ad hominem charge against a vaguely defined group, and I don't see how it forwards any discussion at all.
posted by maxsparber at 6:28 AM on January 8 [7 favorites +] [!]
Unsurprising.
posted by jayder at 9:07 AM on January 8, in thread 145914
Actually, it's about ethics in french political cartoons.
posted by malocchio at 1:50 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
And I think that's fascist "with us or against us" Bush era neocon bullshit.
Ah, the name-calling always helps improve threads like this. (Does the "fascist" bit mean the thread is now officially godwinned?)
posted by aught at 2:17 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
And I think that's fascist "with us or against us" Bush era neocon bullshit.
Well you couldn't be more wrong, but I've come to expect no less over the course of reading your contribution here.
posted by walrus at 2:20 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
Everybody with their frickin' panties in a twist: Maybe (just maybe) this is just a story without a moral? Consider (for the love of FSM) the possibility that "some insane people murder some mildly annoying people" is not the kind of story that should inform our philosophies of life. No amount of debate will turn this into a meaningful thing. And certainly not this debate. Which, given the normally ridiculously high level of discourse at MF, doesn't bode well for the rest of the planet. D'oh.
So I don't know, but this might be the most rational reaction I've heard so far (translated from German):
"This could never happen at our magazine. We have only 6 editors."
- Tim Wolff, Titanic Magazine
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 3:24 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
#NotAllIslamists
posted by rr at 3:31 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
It's eerie how closely his remarks resemble the "I condemn the killings, but..." comments coming from liberals in this thread.
The are not liberals, they are leftists, i.e the principle of freedom of speech is less important to them than the principle of ranking moral order based on which rung of the oppression ladder participant identity groups belong to.
posted by dydecker at 5:33 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
That's not a very nice thing to say.
posted by Justinian at 5:39 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
Sort of relevant: Saudi Blogger To Be Publicly Flogged For Insulting Islam
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — A Saudi blogger who was sentenced last May to 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes will be publicly flogged for the first time after Friday prayers outside a mosque in the Red Sea coastal city of Jiddah, a person close to his case said Thursday.
Raif Baddawi was sentenced on charges related to accusations that he insulted Islam on a liberal online forum he had created.
[...]
London-based rights group Amnesty International has said that Badawi is to receive 50 lashes once a week for 20 weeks.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:21 PM on January 8, in thread 145914
Reaction to the Charlie Hebdo Massacre, Part One
How's this for a thought experiment about irreverence:
Serial is the worst piece of trash disguised as journalism to be produced in recent years. The show presents itself as searching for the truth by applying a generic veneer of liberal progressivism when in reality Serial is all about ratings, ratings, and more ratings. The producers behind the show are unethical and are using the murder of a young woman purely for entertainment.
I'm serious when I say that, by the way, but I'm posting it here to see if anyone is remotely upset by that characterization of Serial, and just how touchy people can become about culture. It might make the furor over the cartoons more easy to understand.
posted by Nevin at 11:52 AM on January 7, in thread 145914
I wonder how many people would be rushing in here to discuss the "context" of this crime had it been a rape?
I wonder how many people would be citing the victims' history of wearing "provocative outfits" or "getting drunk" or "putting themselves in vulnerable positions".
Rape is rape. Murder is murder.
posted by smithsmith at 12:36 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Wow, both my comments have been deleted, one which agreed with sangermaine and another about acts of violence perpetrated by muslims. The lengths this place goes to to protect muslims who commit atrocities is appalling.
posted by marienbad at 12:38 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
And another deleted - you can't even complain about it on here now. wow. american liberals supporting murderers - what has the world come to.
Manhunt underway - interesting that they can't find them - someone (or someones) are shielding them.
posted by marienbad at 12:44 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Manhunt underway - interesting that they can't find them - someone (or someones) are shielding them.
posted by marienbad at 12:49 PM on January 7 [+] [!]
Wild-ass speculation with an undercurrent of incitement. Flagged.
posted by lalochezia at 12:53 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Manhunt underway - interesting that they can't find them - someone (or someones) are shielding them.
posted by marienbad at 12:49 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
interesting that they can't find them - someone (or someones) are shielding them.
For instance?
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:54 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Granted nobody died, but we had a terrorist attack in Colorado on January 6 that doesn't appear to be getting a whole lot of attention.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:53 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Granted nobody died, but we had a terrorist attack in Colorado on January 6 that doesn't appear to be getting a whole lot of attention.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:53 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
(I bring up the NAACP bombing primarily in response to Golden Eternity's link - I meant to include this statement in the same comment but forgot and didn't want to add it after the fact in this fast moving conversation)
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:59 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
drown out the little voice saying: "false flag, false flag, false flag ..."
If the CCTV was 'not working', or they don't find the killers, or if they find a couple of amateurish guys wholly unlike the trained killers seen today, then this may well be a false flag operation - of which there are dozens of previous examples.
posted by colie at 1:12 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
of which there are dozens of previous examples
Care to name, say, your top five from the past 15 years?
posted by yoink at 1:18 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
If the CCTV was 'not working', or they don't find the killers, or if they find a couple of amateurish guys wholly unlike the trained killers seen today, then this may well be a false flag operation - of which there are dozens of previous examples.
So the lesson from this comment is that if the mods blow away your previous false flag turd, you can just fling it again until it sticks.
posted by Behemoth at 1:30 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
symbioid, give it a fucking rest, man. You are throwing up so many red herrings it's ridiculous. When Fidel Cashflow asks, "Should only tasteful satire be protected speech?" he's not asking for your take on what the government's stance should be, he's saying that there is the blood of twelve people running through the streets of Paris and that means today the cost of speech was life and that is tremendously wrong.
So you know, let me be totally clear on this. You can take your factionalism, religious and ethnic divides, etc. and - in this particular situation - shove them up your ass. Because there is a shadow over this particular conversation and you are totally trolling us by not acknowledging its overwhelming importance. One might even go so far as to say this is an incredibly important time to be clear about what you are not open-minded about.
But if you want to say this is the wake-up call that we needed in order to start this conversation, then by God, go ahead and say it. Fucking go for it. But don't call the rest of us dense for looking at this as a blatant affront on liberty, and invoking certain well-established social principles that serve to shape Western civilization to essentially say, "No matter what these people printed, this is categorically wrong, and we will not be intimidated." Goddamnit.
posted by phaedon at 2:19 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
BY QUESTIONING THE WISDOM OF THE ACT OF THE VICTIMS I'M CLEARLY VICTIM BLAMING
Yes, now you have it.
posted by the bricabrac man at 4:15 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Lots of Frislamic folks getting ass fed hummus as I type this, I reckon.
posted by Renoroc at 5:18 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Actually the #NotAllMuslims analogy to #NotAllMen analogy fits perfectly, desjardins.
#NotAllMen = #NotAllMenWhoComplainAboutRapeConversations
#NotAllMuslims = #NotAllMuslimsWhoComplainAboutMuhammadCartoons
Both critique people who seek to avoid justified criticism of an ideology by incorrectly claiming personal injury : aspects of rape culture and Islamic fundamentalism.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:27 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
As an example of that, I haven't heard any calls for apologies from white men, and arguments for white men's collective guilt, and, in fact, not much of anything at all, regarding the fact that an NAACP headquarters was bombed yesterday by a white man.
Somehow, another attempted terrorist attack has gone largely unnoticed. It is very strange how this happens sometimes.
posted by homunculus at 5:45 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Could we maybe stop with the NAACP derail?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:46 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
I'll wager the bombers of the NAACP office have a connection to law enforcement. At minimum the attack was stirred up by the right-wing's pro-cop anti-black tirade after Ferguson.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:53 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
A history of racist and xenophobic cartoons does not "justified criticism of an ideology" make.
Especially since Muslims themselves have come under fire from Muslims and non-Muslims alike for critiquing their religion without this much solidarity.
Sorry, but this is not a statement of facts, it is her opinion. divabat may post emphatic opinions, delivered with great assurance, but that does not make her right. And if she gets mad that others emphatically state opinions at odds with hers, that is too bad.
posted by feste at 6:03 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
That was a ridiculous deletion.
posted by mlis at 6:15 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Actually the #NotAllMuslims analogy to #NotAllMen analogy fits perfectly, desjardins.
excellent mansplaining, jeffburdges. you bear our white man's burden with grace.
Oops, sorry. strike that. invert. thanks.
posted by mwhybark at 6:23 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
That mockery of the pain and trauma of still not found kidnapped young schoolgirls is dickish.
posted by infini at 1:30 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
A reminder that we grow our own crazies at home too:
posted by hank at 6:49 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
What do you mean we? We're all in this together. This isn't us and them.
posted by ODiV at 6:55 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
The extremists on both sides are on collusion against the middle.
human centipede
posted by stbalbach at 8:38 AM on January 7, in thread 145914
Serial is the worst piece of trash disguised as journalism to be produced in recent years. The show presents itself as searching for the truth by applying a generic veneer of liberal progressivism when in reality Serial is all about ratings, ratings, and more ratings. The producers behind the show are unethical and are using the murder of a young woman purely for entertainment.
I'm serious when I say that, by the way, but I'm posting it here to see if anyone is remotely upset by that characterization of Serial, and just how touchy people can become about culture. It might make the furor over the cartoons more easy to understand.
posted by Nevin at 11:52 AM on January 7, in thread 145914
I wonder how many people would be rushing in here to discuss the "context" of this crime had it been a rape?
I wonder how many people would be citing the victims' history of wearing "provocative outfits" or "getting drunk" or "putting themselves in vulnerable positions".
Rape is rape. Murder is murder.
posted by smithsmith at 12:36 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Wow, both my comments have been deleted, one which agreed with sangermaine and another about acts of violence perpetrated by muslims. The lengths this place goes to to protect muslims who commit atrocities is appalling.
posted by marienbad at 12:38 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
And another deleted - you can't even complain about it on here now. wow. american liberals supporting murderers - what has the world come to.
Manhunt underway - interesting that they can't find them - someone (or someones) are shielding them.
posted by marienbad at 12:44 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Manhunt underway - interesting that they can't find them - someone (or someones) are shielding them.
posted by marienbad at 12:49 PM on January 7 [+] [!]
Wild-ass speculation with an undercurrent of incitement. Flagged.
posted by lalochezia at 12:53 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Manhunt underway - interesting that they can't find them - someone (or someones) are shielding them.
posted by marienbad at 12:49 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
interesting that they can't find them - someone (or someones) are shielding them.
For instance?
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:54 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Granted nobody died, but we had a terrorist attack in Colorado on January 6 that doesn't appear to be getting a whole lot of attention.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:53 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Granted nobody died, but we had a terrorist attack in Colorado on January 6 that doesn't appear to be getting a whole lot of attention.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:53 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
(I bring up the NAACP bombing primarily in response to Golden Eternity's link - I meant to include this statement in the same comment but forgot and didn't want to add it after the fact in this fast moving conversation)
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:59 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
drown out the little voice saying: "false flag, false flag, false flag ..."
If the CCTV was 'not working', or they don't find the killers, or if they find a couple of amateurish guys wholly unlike the trained killers seen today, then this may well be a false flag operation - of which there are dozens of previous examples.
posted by colie at 1:12 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
of which there are dozens of previous examples
Care to name, say, your top five from the past 15 years?
posted by yoink at 1:18 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
If the CCTV was 'not working', or they don't find the killers, or if they find a couple of amateurish guys wholly unlike the trained killers seen today, then this may well be a false flag operation - of which there are dozens of previous examples.
So the lesson from this comment is that if the mods blow away your previous false flag turd, you can just fling it again until it sticks.
posted by Behemoth at 1:30 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
symbioid, give it a fucking rest, man. You are throwing up so many red herrings it's ridiculous. When Fidel Cashflow asks, "Should only tasteful satire be protected speech?" he's not asking for your take on what the government's stance should be, he's saying that there is the blood of twelve people running through the streets of Paris and that means today the cost of speech was life and that is tremendously wrong.
So you know, let me be totally clear on this. You can take your factionalism, religious and ethnic divides, etc. and - in this particular situation - shove them up your ass. Because there is a shadow over this particular conversation and you are totally trolling us by not acknowledging its overwhelming importance. One might even go so far as to say this is an incredibly important time to be clear about what you are not open-minded about.
But if you want to say this is the wake-up call that we needed in order to start this conversation, then by God, go ahead and say it. Fucking go for it. But don't call the rest of us dense for looking at this as a blatant affront on liberty, and invoking certain well-established social principles that serve to shape Western civilization to essentially say, "No matter what these people printed, this is categorically wrong, and we will not be intimidated." Goddamnit.
posted by phaedon at 2:19 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
BY QUESTIONING THE WISDOM OF THE ACT OF THE VICTIMS I'M CLEARLY VICTIM BLAMING
Yes, now you have it.
posted by the bricabrac man at 4:15 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Lots of Frislamic folks getting ass fed hummus as I type this, I reckon.
posted by Renoroc at 5:18 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Actually the #NotAllMuslims analogy to #NotAllMen analogy fits perfectly, desjardins.
#NotAllMen = #NotAllMenWhoComplainAboutRapeConversations
#NotAllMuslims = #NotAllMuslimsWhoComplainAboutMuhammadCartoons
Both critique people who seek to avoid justified criticism of an ideology by incorrectly claiming personal injury : aspects of rape culture and Islamic fundamentalism.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:27 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
As an example of that, I haven't heard any calls for apologies from white men, and arguments for white men's collective guilt, and, in fact, not much of anything at all, regarding the fact that an NAACP headquarters was bombed yesterday by a white man.
Somehow, another attempted terrorist attack has gone largely unnoticed. It is very strange how this happens sometimes.
posted by homunculus at 5:45 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Could we maybe stop with the NAACP derail?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:46 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
I'll wager the bombers of the NAACP office have a connection to law enforcement. At minimum the attack was stirred up by the right-wing's pro-cop anti-black tirade after Ferguson.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:53 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
A history of racist and xenophobic cartoons does not "justified criticism of an ideology" make.
Especially since Muslims themselves have come under fire from Muslims and non-Muslims alike for critiquing their religion without this much solidarity.
Sorry, but this is not a statement of facts, it is her opinion. divabat may post emphatic opinions, delivered with great assurance, but that does not make her right. And if she gets mad that others emphatically state opinions at odds with hers, that is too bad.
posted by feste at 6:03 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
That was a ridiculous deletion.
posted by mlis at 6:15 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
Actually the #NotAllMuslims analogy to #NotAllMen analogy fits perfectly, desjardins.
excellent mansplaining, jeffburdges. you bear our white man's burden with grace.
Oops, sorry. strike that. invert. thanks.
posted by mwhybark at 6:23 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
That mockery of the pain and trauma of still not found kidnapped young schoolgirls is dickish.
posted by infini at 1:30 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
A reminder that we grow our own crazies at home too:
posted by hank at 6:49 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
What do you mean we? We're all in this together. This isn't us and them.
posted by ODiV at 6:55 PM on January 7, in thread 145914
The extremists on both sides are on collusion against the middle.
human centipede
posted by stbalbach at 8:38 AM on January 7, in thread 145914
Thursday, November 12, 2015
Another long-time user quits
I note that in the instances I have read about women on campus being raped, more often than not they mention they had blacked out or were passed out, etc. when the assault took place. First question, then, is how old is the guy, the girl, and what is the drinking age, and where did the incident take place--that is, on or off campus.
I worried about such goings on when my daughter was at college--she graduated last year--but worried much less when I learned that she disliked large drinking gatherings, was careful with what she did drink.
posted by Postroad at 8:51 AM on November 11, in thread 154618
As a man who hasn't been south of 6'2" or 250 lbs in years, my direct action is to tackle guys who are wearing football jerseys and smash them into the ground. If anyone complains, my defense is, "Come on! Dressed like that, he was asking for it."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:51 AM on November 11, in thread 154618
Clearly and reasonably men carry the legal and moral responsibility for the vast majority of sexual assaults and rape. If there is mutual intoxication/diminished capacity I fail to see how a woman who is intoxicated, and has diminished capacity, is able to give or withhold informed consent as if she was sober . One should reasonable assert that an intoxicated male carries the significant share of responsibility and culpability but I really do not see how that waives contributory, though passive, negligence on the part of the woman. If a driver is drunk it is not prudent to get in the car--but are you more or less likely to get in the car if you are sober or intoxicated. I am seriously trying not to set this up as blaming the victim but I see few other situations when there is mutual diminished capacity that some culpability, though not necessarily proportionate,is not assigned or absolved to both parties. I am only talking about when there is mutual diminished capacity. It is usually prudent to be substantially sober or only slightly buzzed as there is increased risk with any episode of intoxication (falling, fighting, spending money, throwing up, other socially offensive behaviors or sexual victimization or impropriety). But once again, I am not referring to one party intoxication which can be blatantly exploitative.
posted by rmhsinc at 1:52 PM on November 11, in thread 154618
whether the men raping me were sober or drunk, it at no time felt like an accident or happenstance or something he fell into. if a man's diminished capacity is a factor in him raping someone, that was in him all along. his victims are not culpable in any way for his crime of anger and entitlement.
posted by nadawi at 2:01 PM on November 11, in thread 154618
Can we just agree that getting drunk at parties is stupid and horrible?
Yep, men can get sexually aggressive when they are drunk. Because people act like shit when they are drunk, and sexual aggression is just one of a multitude of ways in which people can act like shit.
We can adopt better consent standards, hold perpetrators accountable, etc, and it will probably reduce rape. But as long as throngs of people gather at parties with the intention to drink, screw, or bask in the tension of others doing so, shitty things will happen. I basically won't go to any event like that anymore—I'm fucking done with them. I'm sick or pretending they are fun, or watching people treat each other like shit and laughing it off because woohoo that's what people do when they are drunk.
posted by andrewpcone at 2:22 PM on November 11, in thread 154618
Well, it was interesting to wake up to being characterized as a straight woman with homophobia issues. That was pretty choice, since the actual perspective I'm coming from is (as Conspire pointed out) that of a queer woman
When you sideline your minority status to gang up with the majority you belong to to slag off another minority, you are committing the exact same sin the article objects to re: privilege. Sorry for assuming you were straight; I just figured a lesbian would have a better handle on it, since hatred of gay men has a way of spilling over.
So, seriously, what is your excuse for being so goddamned homophobic that every time a gay man pisses you off, that gets filed in the Gay Men Are Terrible file? Do you do the same thing with Black people and Jews? That sort of thing is not a "pet peeve," it's prejudice.
Your experiences are not sacred. Sharing your cherry-picked worst interactions with a minority group negatively impacts innocent people. Take some responsibility.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:02 AM on November 12, in thread 23911
Bro, I was saying that gay men have a cultural problem with a very specific form of misogyny. If that's homophobic, is there a way to criticize gay men in what is theoretically my own goddamn community that isn't? Intersectionality is a fucking thing, and given that we're both queer and you're trying to silence me from discussing my experiences... Well, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
posted by sciatrix at 8:09 AM on November 12, in thread 23911
I think it's perfectly valid, and if you disagree you can state your reasons rather than using insults.
As I said before, the message seems to be "It's deplorable to restrain the media until it's done by someone we agree with".
posted by Sangermaine at 9:41 AM on November 12, in thread 154647
It's funny that this is exactly what conservatives say when railing about the mainstream media and trying to control the media narrative. We generally laugh at them for this.
Surely you know what a shitty rhetorical device this is. Can you not do it here?
posted by maxsparber at 9:39 AM on November 12, in thread 154647
from the fpp link:
> That these issues have now been subsumed in a debate over political correctness and free speech
> on campus—important but largely separate subjects—is proof of the self-serving deflection to
> which we should be accustomed at this point.
"Self-serving deflections." That's a patent assumption. "Self-serving", maybe, maybe not, proof one way or the other is required, it is illegitimate just to assume it. "Deflections", not--except in the sense that they divert attention from those aspects of a fraught situation which some groups wish were the only subjects of the, heh, conversation, toward other aspects of the same fraught situation which the same groups do not wish to think about. The only proof offered is the unsupported assertion that "political correctness and free speech on campus" are "largely separate subjects" from racial recrimination and self-righteous backlash, a patent and tendentious falsehood. In fact all of these are most intimately, inextricably intertwined. If that kind of blanket, unsupported assertion is all you got, you got nothing. (Except wishful thinking.)
from this thread, supra:
> That Kristof article falls into the same disingenuous pattern that Cobb points out
"Disingenuous," another patent assumption. Do you really imagine Kristof is arguing for beliefs he does not sincerely hold? Because that's what disingenuous is. Pics or it didn't happen.
Yes, yes, I know where I am. Only two kinds here, people who agree with us and people who are arguing disingenuously. To believe that is an intellectual illness; one cannot have substantive conversation with the intellectually ill.
posted by jfuller at 9:49 AM on November 12, in thread 154647
and we're now back to the original thread.
maybe time to put this MeTa to bed?
You're upset that this discussion is taking place. Are you therefore taking it upon yourself to derail the conversation so it can be closed? Because as a lurker watching what's going on, that's what it seems like.
posted by zarq at 10:51 AM on November 12, in thread 23911
> if I'm not the one with skin in the fight, I'm not the one who gets to dictate the tactics.
Then--department of unintended consequences--folks should be somewhat more diffident about announcing "everyone is racist" because that gives everyone skin in the fight.
posted by jfuller at 11:52 AM on November 12, in thread 154647
> [One comment deleted. jfuller, please just skip this thread.]
Done. I find that the mere pleasure of having an ultra-low user number is no longer enough to make me want to associate myself with the kind of Victorian-foundation-garment site Metafilter has become. Apologies to those who are legitimately my friends here (especially to Katjusa Roquette, to whom I just this minute finished linking to (friend)) and those who were pleased to link to me, especially b33j.
posted by jfuller at 3:19 PM on November 12, in thread 154647
I worried about such goings on when my daughter was at college--she graduated last year--but worried much less when I learned that she disliked large drinking gatherings, was careful with what she did drink.
posted by Postroad at 8:51 AM on November 11, in thread 154618
As a man who hasn't been south of 6'2" or 250 lbs in years, my direct action is to tackle guys who are wearing football jerseys and smash them into the ground. If anyone complains, my defense is, "Come on! Dressed like that, he was asking for it."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:51 AM on November 11, in thread 154618
Clearly and reasonably men carry the legal and moral responsibility for the vast majority of sexual assaults and rape. If there is mutual intoxication/diminished capacity I fail to see how a woman who is intoxicated, and has diminished capacity, is able to give or withhold informed consent as if she was sober . One should reasonable assert that an intoxicated male carries the significant share of responsibility and culpability but I really do not see how that waives contributory, though passive, negligence on the part of the woman. If a driver is drunk it is not prudent to get in the car--but are you more or less likely to get in the car if you are sober or intoxicated. I am seriously trying not to set this up as blaming the victim but I see few other situations when there is mutual diminished capacity that some culpability, though not necessarily proportionate,is not assigned or absolved to both parties. I am only talking about when there is mutual diminished capacity. It is usually prudent to be substantially sober or only slightly buzzed as there is increased risk with any episode of intoxication (falling, fighting, spending money, throwing up, other socially offensive behaviors or sexual victimization or impropriety). But once again, I am not referring to one party intoxication which can be blatantly exploitative.
posted by rmhsinc at 1:52 PM on November 11, in thread 154618
whether the men raping me were sober or drunk, it at no time felt like an accident or happenstance or something he fell into. if a man's diminished capacity is a factor in him raping someone, that was in him all along. his victims are not culpable in any way for his crime of anger and entitlement.
posted by nadawi at 2:01 PM on November 11, in thread 154618
Can we just agree that getting drunk at parties is stupid and horrible?
Yep, men can get sexually aggressive when they are drunk. Because people act like shit when they are drunk, and sexual aggression is just one of a multitude of ways in which people can act like shit.
We can adopt better consent standards, hold perpetrators accountable, etc, and it will probably reduce rape. But as long as throngs of people gather at parties with the intention to drink, screw, or bask in the tension of others doing so, shitty things will happen. I basically won't go to any event like that anymore—I'm fucking done with them. I'm sick or pretending they are fun, or watching people treat each other like shit and laughing it off because woohoo that's what people do when they are drunk.
posted by andrewpcone at 2:22 PM on November 11, in thread 154618
Well, it was interesting to wake up to being characterized as a straight woman with homophobia issues. That was pretty choice, since the actual perspective I'm coming from is (as Conspire pointed out) that of a queer woman
When you sideline your minority status to gang up with the majority you belong to to slag off another minority, you are committing the exact same sin the article objects to re: privilege. Sorry for assuming you were straight; I just figured a lesbian would have a better handle on it, since hatred of gay men has a way of spilling over.
So, seriously, what is your excuse for being so goddamned homophobic that every time a gay man pisses you off, that gets filed in the Gay Men Are Terrible file? Do you do the same thing with Black people and Jews? That sort of thing is not a "pet peeve," it's prejudice.
Your experiences are not sacred. Sharing your cherry-picked worst interactions with a minority group negatively impacts innocent people. Take some responsibility.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:02 AM on November 12, in thread 23911
Bro, I was saying that gay men have a cultural problem with a very specific form of misogyny. If that's homophobic, is there a way to criticize gay men in what is theoretically my own goddamn community that isn't? Intersectionality is a fucking thing, and given that we're both queer and you're trying to silence me from discussing my experiences... Well, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
posted by sciatrix at 8:09 AM on November 12, in thread 23911
I think it's perfectly valid, and if you disagree you can state your reasons rather than using insults.
As I said before, the message seems to be "It's deplorable to restrain the media until it's done by someone we agree with".
posted by Sangermaine at 9:41 AM on November 12, in thread 154647
It's funny that this is exactly what conservatives say when railing about the mainstream media and trying to control the media narrative. We generally laugh at them for this.
Surely you know what a shitty rhetorical device this is. Can you not do it here?
posted by maxsparber at 9:39 AM on November 12, in thread 154647
from the fpp link:
> That these issues have now been subsumed in a debate over political correctness and free speech
> on campus—important but largely separate subjects—is proof of the self-serving deflection to
> which we should be accustomed at this point.
"Self-serving deflections." That's a patent assumption. "Self-serving", maybe, maybe not, proof one way or the other is required, it is illegitimate just to assume it. "Deflections", not--except in the sense that they divert attention from those aspects of a fraught situation which some groups wish were the only subjects of the, heh, conversation, toward other aspects of the same fraught situation which the same groups do not wish to think about. The only proof offered is the unsupported assertion that "political correctness and free speech on campus" are "largely separate subjects" from racial recrimination and self-righteous backlash, a patent and tendentious falsehood. In fact all of these are most intimately, inextricably intertwined. If that kind of blanket, unsupported assertion is all you got, you got nothing. (Except wishful thinking.)
from this thread, supra:
> That Kristof article falls into the same disingenuous pattern that Cobb points out
"Disingenuous," another patent assumption. Do you really imagine Kristof is arguing for beliefs he does not sincerely hold? Because that's what disingenuous is. Pics or it didn't happen.
Yes, yes, I know where I am. Only two kinds here, people who agree with us and people who are arguing disingenuously. To believe that is an intellectual illness; one cannot have substantive conversation with the intellectually ill.
posted by jfuller at 9:49 AM on November 12, in thread 154647
and we're now back to the original thread.
maybe time to put this MeTa to bed?
You're upset that this discussion is taking place. Are you therefore taking it upon yourself to derail the conversation so it can be closed? Because as a lurker watching what's going on, that's what it seems like.
posted by zarq at 10:51 AM on November 12, in thread 23911
> if I'm not the one with skin in the fight, I'm not the one who gets to dictate the tactics.
Then--department of unintended consequences--folks should be somewhat more diffident about announcing "everyone is racist" because that gives everyone skin in the fight.
posted by jfuller at 11:52 AM on November 12, in thread 154647
> [One comment deleted. jfuller, please just skip this thread.]
Done. I find that the mere pleasure of having an ultra-low user number is no longer enough to make me want to associate myself with the kind of Victorian-foundation-garment site Metafilter has become. Apologies to those who are legitimately my friends here (especially to Katjusa Roquette, to whom I just this minute finished linking to (friend)) and those who were pleased to link to me, especially b33j.
posted by jfuller at 3:19 PM on November 12, in thread 154647
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